A Charles Frodsham Watch

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A Charles Frodsham Watch

New postby Jerry Freedman » Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:40 pm

This watch has nothing to do with my family, but does have a story to tell. However, my research has not yet been able to uncover the story behind the inscription on the dust cover.

"To Staff Surgeon William Carson from James Fraser in memory of June 1854 at Mauritius"
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Frodsham Dial.jpg
Frodsham Dial.jpg (56.72 KiB) Viewed 4826 times
Frodsham Movement.jpg
Frodsham Movement.jpg (93.93 KiB) Viewed 4812 times
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Re: A Charles Frodsham Watch

New postby James MacDonald » Thu Oct 23, 2008 4:24 am

Nice watch.

There was a Cholera outbreak on Mauritius in 1854. Maruitius was a British colony at the time. From a Google search, it appears there was a James Fraser prominent in civic and commercial affairs on Mauritius in that general era. Perhaps Staff Surgeon Carson had something to do with treating Fraser or his employees?

A slender reed, I know, but perhaps one tracing further.

Jim

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Google Books: A History of Asiatic Cholera by Nottidge Charles Macnamara; Published by Macmillan, 1876

Google search on "james fraser" mauritius
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Re: A Charles Frodsham Watch

New postby Irwin » Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:01 am

A quality watch from a quality maker. This wasn't a cheap Thank You gift.
Jerry - Can you possibly post photos of the case?
IF
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Re: A Charles Frodsham Watch

New postby Jerry Freedman » Sat Oct 25, 2008 4:50 pm

Jim: Thanks for the information on the cholera outbreak. I will carry on and see what I can come up with.

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Re: A Charles Frodsham Watch

New postby Jerry Freedman » Sat Oct 25, 2008 4:54 pm

Irwin: I don't have a picture of the case, but it is an 18K engine turned model, pretty typical of what was being used at the time. I am however attaching a picture of the hallmarks. The makers mark is unreadable.
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Re: A Charles Frodsham Watch

New postby fjmenez » Tue May 12, 2009 11:41 am

Jerry

The Hall Mark date letter looks like 1833. Is this correct?

My serial number list indicates a date for S/N 17567 C 1865

Is it possible that the case and movement are from a different time???

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Re: A Charles Frodsham Watch

New postby fjmenez » Sat May 23, 2009 10:03 am

A second look at this watch appears to me to have the same serial number on the movement and the case (17567). The HM appears to be 1833. Is this correct? The dial with the AD fmsz would indicate a date of 1850 or later. The S/N 17567 in my listing indicates C1865. There is an Arnold Frodsham watch listed in Mercers book S/N 15185 with a HM for 1863. I would like to hear your comments on my view of this watch.
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Re: A Charles Frodsham Watch

New postby Glyn Meredith » Sat May 23, 2009 11:05 am

1833 is not correct, Frank - the s for that year has no serifs.

The date letter in the photo is not very clear but it looks to me to be 1853, considering the other information that you have given. If you have serial information dating the watch to 1865 for case and movement, it is not unlikely that the case was made and hallmarked 10 years before it was fitted to the movement and stamped with the serial number.

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Re: A Charles Frodsham Watch

New postby fjmenez » Sat May 23, 2009 11:47 am

Glyn

Looked at the HM again and I agree it probably is 1853., it makes more sense since the serial number and the ADfmsz on the dial would indicate a date after 1850. This dating of watches from HMs and serial numbers is often difficult. Thanks for responding to my post

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Re: A Charles Frodsham Watch

New postby Jerry Freedman » Sat May 23, 2009 7:57 pm

The movement and the case do have the same serial number, and the hallmark is for 1853. I sent pictures of the watch to the Frodsham company in London wondering if the watch was a fake. The dial uses only Frodsham's name while the movement is marked for the former JR Arnold and Frodsham partnership. The Frodsham company assured me that the watch was not a fake, but the numbering of the movement and the case is an enigma. I love that word! Anyhow, they suggested that the movement was left over from the old partnership, and Frodsham used his dial and had the watch cased. That sounds good, but Frodsham is supposed to have taken over the business for himself in 1854. So why do we have a Frodsham dial on an Arnold and Frodsham watch hallmarked for 1853, with the same number for case and movement? I think enigma is a very good term concerning this watch. Regardless, it is a very pretty watch and I display it next to my James McCabe from the same era.

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Re: A Charles Frodsham Watch

New postby fjmenez » Sat May 23, 2009 9:59 pm

I have a Charles Frodsham pocket watch movement with dial #9078. The movement is signed Arnold Chas Frodsham 84 Strand London
The dial is signed Arnold and under Arnold Chas Frodsham. I have seen several other Frodsham watches with the same system of identification. I have never seen a Frodsham pocket watch with Frodsham on the dial and Arnold Chas Frodsham on the movement.
The Frodsham that I have, the movement is made by Nicole, Nielsen (Keyless work). I hope some day records will be discovered that will give us a clue to these mysteries.
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