snipe hunt revisited.

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snipe hunt revisited.

New postby cannon pinion » Wed Mar 30, 2016 12:29 am

Here is the balance for the Waltham Royal 16s I posted here previously.
bal.JPG
I got a proper remover and got the roller table off. I see a hub, but it's not blue.
Is this indeed a friction staff? My thought is to put the balance in the staking tool, with the hub on a hole that will support the hub shoulder then drive the shaft out with a conical hollow punch on the top pivot shoulder, that pivot being already busted which is the reason for this whole excursion.
The prior thread is here: http://www.global-horology.com/GHMB
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Re: snipe hunt revisited.

New postby richiec » Wed Mar 30, 2016 1:21 am

Andy, that looks like a riveted staff, not a tapered friction fit. Waltham made them both ways.
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Re: snipe hunt revisited.

New postby Glyn Meredith » Thu Mar 31, 2016 2:47 pm

cannon pinion wrote:... The prior thread is here: http://www.global-horology.com/GHMB


Not that link,Andy.

:?:
Posted on GH recently? Your posts keep us going.

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Re: snipe hunt revisited.

New postby Neilywatch » Thu Mar 31, 2016 5:54 pm

Andy - this is supposed to be a friction fit staff with a square shoulder. You can see that from the shape of the hub - it is square! BUT, it looks like someone did some butcher work to it. IT looks like the staff was soldered in???

I'd take a VERY GOOD look at that. Looks like you'll be needing to replace the whole balance!
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Re: snipe hunt revisited.

New postby cannon pinion » Sat Apr 02, 2016 2:55 am

I looked at it very carefully for a long time. There is nothing square that I see, it may appear so in the photos due to reflection. Both the roller table stop and the hub beneath it are round and dont show signs of modification. There were some crumbs of old shellac here and there .
I can discern a minute space between the hub and the roller table stop. Also the serial # of the movement is scratched on the balance arm.
On the hairspring side, there is what may be solder in between the staff and the balance arm.
What if I was to heat it up with a soldering iron close the staff and then try to drive the staff down out of the hub? Or just try using the KD staff remover in the staking tool?
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Re: snipe hunt revisited.

New postby Neilywatch » Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:31 pm

Andy -
This is going to be difficult to explain re square and round hubs on Walthams:

There are 2 kinds of friction staffs. The first kind where the staff has taper on it where it goes into the blue hub, these were discontinued since so many were getting cracked trying to drive them into the hub. The 2nd kind where the staff has small flange with a "square" shoulder. This gave the staff more meat so it could be driven into the hub without cracking. The staff itself was not square, but the flange was "squared" off rather than tapered.

The only way to know which staff to use was if the area where the balance arms meet the center is "square" like yours is - then you use the staff with a square shoulder. If the center of the balance where arms meet is round with a blue hub, then you use a tapered shoulder staff.

I hope you can understand this - I would have to draw something or look for a Waltham illustration to show you, and I am not up to that now.

In your balance it looks like someone just jammed some thing else in there. What you call the roller table stop should be flush with the hub that is there now. Instead its up high with a step that should NOT be there. IF is soldered in -its done. IT would be a small miracle to separate all that. Hence my suggestion to replace the whole balance.
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Re: snipe hunt revisited.

New postby cannon pinion » Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:56 pm

Neil - that is very clear explanation. It strikes me I've got nothing to lose by trying to disassemble this balance and I may learn something in the effort.
I'm going to meditate on it and see what I can accomplish.
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Re: snipe hunt revisited.

New postby JerryT » Sun Apr 03, 2016 4:47 am

Here are two illustrations from Waltham of the two types of friction balance staff. First is the older square-shouldered staff (squared in profile view). A roller table with a large hole fits around that shoulder (F) which stands below the hub. Second is the taper-shoulder staff. The taper (F) nests into a recess in the hub and the roller table has a smaller hole. At this point I am not sure which you have in your watch, but if it hasn't been mucked up it looks like it might be the square-shoulder (part #4860).

4860.jpg
4861.jpg
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Re: snipe hunt revisited.

New postby Neilywatch » Sun Apr 03, 2016 6:26 pm

Jerry - many thanks for putting up the illustrations. For some reason I thought the tapered staffs came first.
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Re: snipe hunt revisited.

New postby cannon pinion » Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:38 am

Thanks Jerry and Neil. That info will guide me in my attempt to disconstruct the balance.
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Re: snipe hunt revisited.

New postby cannon pinion » Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:53 am

2.JPG
staff starting out of balance

3.JPG
staff out

4.JPG
balance after removal
4.JPG (33.88 KiB) Viewed 2912 times

A couple of light taps and it came apart. But it looks like the staff has some extra hubs on it. It does not resemble the illustrations .
What now? Can I put a staff in this balance?
5.JPG
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Re: snipe hunt revisited.

New postby JerryT » Thu Apr 07, 2016 3:39 am

You ended up removing the hub along with the friction staff. The hub was supposed to stay in the wheel. At one time Waltham stocked replacement hubs (part # 4865). I don't know if the old one would be salvageable at this point.
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Re: snipe hunt revisited.

New postby Neilywatch » Thu Apr 07, 2016 5:04 pm

Hub is not salvageable - Good luck finding a replacement hub.
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Re: snipe hunt revisited.

New postby cannon pinion » Fri Apr 08, 2016 3:05 am

Well, how about this:
0y.JPG
balance, hub and staff finally seperated

oy1.JPG
closeup of hub and staff
oy1.JPG (39.17 KiB) Viewed 2865 times

I drove the staff out of the hub - it came out easily. Then I looked the whole thing over. The hub had a little recessed lip and a taper - looked like it should fit friction tight in the balance arm.
So just for glory, I lined it up with the hole in balance arm and very lightly tapped it with a flat face punch. There was an audible click and it dropped in place.
Oy2.JPG
hub driven back into balance

You can see from the flip side of the balance it is flush and tight.
Oy3.JPG
flip side of balance showing hub snapped in.
How tight is the central question. I thought about peening it a bit with a cone shaped punch to make a rivet on the underside. But that click I heard gave me some sense of a firm foundation.
I'm thinking that the hub doesnt take much stress in action once the staff is seated - there isnt much friction cause the shaft is riding in jewels and the only shock is the impulse on the roller table.
I just wonder if it's tight enuf to manage seating a staff.
Quite likely this is wishful thinking, or some might call it valuable training.
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Re: snipe hunt revisited.

New postby Neilywatch » Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:19 pm

IT does not look tight - but like you said - its all about the learning. The problem I forsee is when you drive in the new staff, you will have to true the balance. And that always puts a major stress on the hub.

My thought is go ahead and fit the staff. Then if you have to true the balance, do so gently. IF the balance pops out of the hub, you can still try to rerivet it back together - with the new staff in place.
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