Urania 400 Day

Discussions about Torsion Pendulum Clocks

Urania 400 Day

New postby brownsrplm » Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:04 pm

I have a Urania 400 Day torsion clock that I just started on today. According to Terwilliger's book it is a Jahresuhrenfabrik made in 1908. It has a G in the bottom left corner of the plate and matches the plate diagram. The problem is, the saddle and bracket look like a Kienzle standard which will throw off what suspension spring I need to use. I am posting a picture of the back plate along with the saddle for all to see.

An opinion: would you look for the correct saddle for a Jahresuhrenfabrik or keep the Kienzle on it?

DSC00235.JPG

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Re: Urania 400 Day

New postby Irwin » Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:40 am

I would take a long term view and keep an eye open for the correct saddle, while fixing up the clock as it is and getting it running until one showed up.
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Re: Urania 400 Day

New postby brownsrplm » Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:45 pm

I'm thinking that's a good idea and will probably do so. The only thing I worry about is getting it running correctly and then finding the right saddle and have to re-spring it all over again!
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Re: Urania 400 Day

New postby brownsrplm » Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:09 pm

Tried the .004 suspension and it was too thin. Ended up with an .005 and get 360* out of the pendulum. Runs a bit fast but I have plenty of room to regulate. Because of the different saddle, the fork rides a little past the middle of the impulse pin. I haven't seen one run like this in quite a while. My guess is the difference in pendulum weight between this one and my GB. That one took the required .004 just like Irwin's. According to Terwilliger, a Urania takes a .005 suspension spring, however this is a Jahresuhurenfabrik with the Urania name and the book requires the .004. So, the saddle is playing an integral part in this clock needing a thicker spring.

This lesson may help you others out when trying to diagnose a hard to get running 400 day.
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Re: Urania 400 Day

New postby brownsrplm » Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:51 pm

Here's the running Urania and just about timed out. I still have to polish the base and then I believe she is ready for the shelf.

DSC00243.JPG
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Re: Urania 400 Day

New postby Irwin » Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:57 am

Ray - There is a partial Urania movement on eBay at the moment, eBay item number: 181303260940, no dome or pendulum, but with everything else. It's just what you want. I see there is only one bid on it - and how many people are going to want to buy it?
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Re: Urania 400 Day

New postby brownsrplm » Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:14 am

Irwin,
That's the Phillip Haas version of the Urania, but I will keep an eye on it, thanks!!!
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Re: Urania 400 Day

New postby John Hubby » Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:43 am

brownsrplm wrote:I have a Urania 400 Day torsion clock that I just started on today. According to Terwilliger's book it is a Jahresuhrenfabrik made in 1908. It has a G in the bottom left corner of the plate and matches the plate diagram. The problem is, the saddle and bracket look like a Kienzle standard which will throw off what suspension spring I need to use. I am posting a picture of the back plate along with the saddle for all to see.

An opinion: would you look for the correct saddle for a Jahresuhrenfabrik or keep the Kienzle on it?
Raymund, your clock is a Jahresuhrenfabrik Plate 1439 made about mid-1909 based on the serial number. It was made for Andreas Huber, who had held the "Urania" trademark since the late 1880's and for whom JUF had been making clocks and movements from 1904 and continuing to the end of 1910. Ph. Hauck (Ph. Haas) also supplied to Huber from 1904 to about 1907, the movement referred to later is one of those.

To the best of our knowledge, the only company with the registered legal name Urania that ever made 400-Day clocks was Andreas Huber, and they stopped making this type movement at the end of 1903. After JUF stopped supply at the end of 1910 Kienzle supplied the movements and clocks to Huber. The only difference between the back plate on your clock and Plate 1439 is the addition of the letter "G" at the lower left corner,

Do NOT replace the saddle, it is correct. The Repair Guide is incorrect in the attribution for bracket No. 15, it is not a Kienzle but is specifically made for JUF and was used solely by JUF from the time of its introduction at the end of 1907 until the late 1920's. There IS a Kienzle version, but it uses the bracket illustrated for No. 18 in the Repair Guide with the addition of the "C" gimbal that is found on your clock. Just check any Kienzle with a serial number above 102000 and you will see the exact Kienzle version; this bracket was used for nearly all Kienzle standard movement clocks made from mid-1908 until they sold their 400-Day business to Kern & Link in 1929.

The problem with the suspension spring in this instance isn't the saddle, it is the height of the clock. The original pendulum for this design had a short (about 1-1/4 inch long) twist rod extension above the pendulum so it could operate with a shorter suspension spring, thus allowing the 0.0040 to work. For info, both JUF and Kienzle used this case design with the movement support pillars taller than usual.

You have a great looking clock, the only difference from "fully original" is the lack of the pendulum twist rod extension and the suspension guard. The guard would be the Huber patent tubular guard with a flared bottom end.
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Re: Urania 400 Day

New postby John Hubby » Wed Apr 30, 2014 4:03 am

Irwin wrote:Ray - There is a partial Urania movement on eBay at the moment, eBay item number: 181303260940, no dome or pendulum, but with everything else. It's just what you want. I see there is only one bid on it - and how many people are going to want to buy it?
Irwin and Ray, this clock was a Kienzle (not Ph. Hauck) that was made in 1919 based on the serial number. Here again, the "Urania" name is there because this was made for Andreas Huber; I explained in my previous note that Kienzle took up the supply to Huber from JUF at the end of 1910, and continued until the late 1920's. By 1919 Kienzle and Huber were well into a swap deal where Kienzle would make the higher quality Graham escapement cut pinion movements and clocks for Huber, and Huber was supplying the lantern pinion-pin pallet movements and clocks to Huber. That business started in 1912 when Huber patented the lantern pinion-pin pallet design and continued until late 1927 or 1928 when Huber stopped making 400-Day clocks and got out of that business. Huber was by then making high precision timing equipment, including all the timing devices and clocks and watches used in the 1936 Olympics.

One thing I need to mention with regard to Ph. Hauck and Ph. Haas. Phillipp Haas never made any 400-Day clocks, a fact that has been confirmed by members of the Haas family. All the back plates in the Repair Guide that are labeled Ph. Haas were in fact made by Philipp Hauck. The reason for the error is that Charlie Terwilliger misinterpreted the "PH" Semester Uhr logo as seen on Plate 1519 as being Phillipp Haas, when in fact the Haas logo was always "PHS" for Phillipp Haas & Söhne. The error was discovered when we found a 1906 ad for Philipp Hauck clocks in which the Semester Uhr logo is clearly shown and the ad also clearly stating it was for Philipp Hauck. There have been several later discoveries that all support this point, so you can change the names on all those Phillipp Haas back plates, pendulums, and brackets to read "Ph. Hauck". There are also several back plates labeled as made by JUF that are in fact made by Hauck. Look for the Hauck train layout together with a click layout that looks like a JUF. All those are Hauck clocks.
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Re: Urania 400 Day

New postby brownsrplm » Wed Apr 30, 2014 12:37 pm

John,
Thanks for the info. What you say about the pendulum makes sense because I ended up shortening the suspension to get it to time out properly. Still have not come across a proper guard (I knew which was the right one) and finding that piece that goes at the top of the pendulum is another hard find. Time will tell, I run across a lot of weird stuff when I'm not really looking for it.
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